chadwicks 477...

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chadwicks 477...

Postby NJflyman on January 19th, 2011, 9:09 am

Anybody have a great substitute for the original Chadwicks 477 ????
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Twism86 on January 19th, 2011, 9:29 am

Isnt that stuff basically impossible to come by these days?
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby NJflyman on January 19th, 2011, 9:32 am

Twism86 wrote:Isnt that stuff basically impossible to come by these days?


Yup... :cry:

Some say Veniard killer bug yarn works.. But I'm still looking for something else...
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Twism86 on January 19th, 2011, 9:34 am

Have you ever seen the Rise Form vid for the walts worm? It looks like a killer bug to me. It fishes, lets just say, well..... ;)
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby NJflyman on January 19th, 2011, 9:42 am

Twism86 wrote:Have you ever seen the Rise Form vid for the walts worm? It looks like a killer bug to me. It fishes, lets just say, well..... ;)


Yup. .McA's (Eric Stroups) WW is very effective... But for some odd reason I wanted to tye up some Sawyer bugs the past few days :roll:
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Twism86 on January 19th, 2011, 9:46 am

NJflyman wrote:
Twism86 wrote:Have you ever seen the Rise Form vid for the walts worm? It looks like a killer bug to me. It fishes, lets just say, well..... ;)


Yup. .McA's WW is very effective... But for some odd reason I wanted to tye up some Sawyer bugs the past few days :roll:

I dont think its McA's creation. Its tied by Eric Stroup in the video i believe, but yea a great fish catcher.

Rumor has it another wool popularized by the crazy people who chase steel is in short supply as well.......
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby NJflyman on January 19th, 2011, 9:57 am

Twism86 wrote:
NJflyman wrote:
Twism86 wrote:Have you ever seen the Rise Form vid for the walts worm? It looks like a killer bug to me. It fishes, lets just say, well..... ;)


Yup. .McA's WW is very effective... But for some odd reason I wanted to tye up some Sawyer bugs the past few days :roll:

I dont think its McA's creation. Its tied by Eric Stroup in the video i believe, but yea a great fish catcher.

Rumor has it another wool popularized by the crazy people who chase steel is in short supply as well.......


OOps.. Guess I was editing as you were posting about Eric Stroup :oops:
What kind of wool for the steel is in short supply???
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Twism86 on January 19th, 2011, 10:01 am

NJflyman wrote:
Twism86 wrote:
NJflyman wrote:
Twism86 wrote:Have you ever seen the Rise Form vid for the walts worm? It looks like a killer bug to me. It fishes, lets just say, well..... ;)


Yup. .McA's WW is very effective... But for some odd reason I wanted to tye up some Sawyer bugs the past few days :roll:

I dont think its McA's creation. Its tied by Eric Stroup in the video i believe, but yea a great fish catcher.

Rumor has it another wool popularized by the crazy people who chase steel is in short supply as well.......


OOps.. Guess I was editing as you were posting about Eric Stroup :oops:
What kind of wool for the steel is in short supply???

That will cost ya ;)
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Rise Form Studio on January 19th, 2011, 10:02 am

Walt's Worm was created by Walt Young. One of the best Fly Tyers ever, and a great guy too :D

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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby NJflyman on January 19th, 2011, 10:12 am

Twism86 wrote:
NJflyman wrote:
Twism86 wrote:
NJflyman wrote:
Twism86 wrote:Have you ever seen the Rise Form vid for the walts worm? It looks like a killer bug to me. It fishes, lets just say, well..... ;)


Yup. .McA's WW is very effective... But for some odd reason I wanted to tye up some Sawyer bugs the past few days :roll:

I dont think its McA's creation. Its tied by Eric Stroup in the video i believe, but yea a great fish catcher.

Rumor has it another wool popularized by the crazy people who chase steel is in short supply as well.......


OOps.. Guess I was editing as you were posting about Eric Stroup :oops:
What kind of wool for the steel is in short supply???

That will cost ya ;)


Guess I would stock up on it now... ;)
Sell it on Ebay in a few years :lol: :lol: :lol:
A kid across the pond wants to sell me some original 477. But I'm not paying his price :shock:
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby NJflyman on January 19th, 2011, 10:26 am

Was the original WW tied with Hareline Hares Ear Plus #1 ???
Or did he blend his own dubbing ???
Also, What other patterns did he come up with??? Or was the WW the only one???
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby onemorecast on January 19th, 2011, 10:52 am

NJflyman wrote:Guess I would stock up on it now... ;)
Sell it on Ebay in a few years :lol: :lol: :lol:
A kid across the pond wants to sell me some original 477. But I'm not paying his price :shock:


A quote from Trout Underground's article about it:

"In 1958 Chadwick’s 477 was, to quote Sawer, “not very easy to obtain”. Naturally Chadwick’s immediately ceased production of the stuff, knowing that flyfishermen as a breed are particularly susceptible to the allure of arcane materials." Ain't that the truth.

Regarding the steelhead fly yarn...It seems the yarn company followed suit and discontinued that color as soon as we discovered how effective it was. I do believe that there are four people on earth who now own the remaining stock. But don't worry - that was LAST YEAR'S hot fly. ;)
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Twism86 on January 19th, 2011, 10:59 am

onemorecast wrote:
NJflyman wrote:Guess I would stock up on it now... ;)
Sell it on Ebay in a few years :lol: :lol: :lol:
A kid across the pond wants to sell me some original 477. But I'm not paying his price :shock:


A quote from Trout Underground's article about it:

"In 1958 Chadwick’s 477 was, to quote Sawer, “not very easy to obtain”. Naturally Chadwick’s immediately ceased production of the stuff, knowing that flyfishermen as a breed are particularly susceptible to the allure of arcane materials." Ain't that the truth.

Regarding the steelhead fly yarn...It seems the yarn company followed suit and discontinued that color as soon as we discovered how effective it was. I do believe that there are four people on earth who now own the remaining stock. But don't worry - that was LAST YEAR'S hot fly. ;)

Im sure the steel have changed their minds and now hate it :lol: I will have to see this coming Feb when I get back up.
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby HooliganTroutBum on January 19th, 2011, 11:56 am

The Walt's Worm is a Walt Young "creation". Adapted by Stroup and fished the hell out of by quite of a few of us. I use quotes on "creation" because it seems the buck/bug stops there, in Central PA. Everything I've read, thus on the WW is that Walt Young started tying and fishing this pattern in the 80s. What does it have to do with Chadwicks #477 & Sawyer's Killer Bug?? I think, a lot.

This is one of the fun aspects of fly fishing, to me. Trying to thread the needle on something like this. Frank Sawyer (the developer of the PT Nymph) was a river keeper in England and there was a campaign to rid the waters of grayling and Saywer came up with his Killer Bug pattern which used this Chadwick's #477 yarn. What puts this card of yarn in to mythical status is that even when Saywer tyed these up in the 50s. Even Sawyer was quoted as saying it was very hard to obtain because it had been out of production then. It was a mending yarn used to make unappealing work dresses in the WWII Era. What made this an effective grayling, trout, and even Atlantic Salmon catcher, was the properties and colors the yarn had while wet. So the great Frank Sawyer swore by the stuff, which was as good as gold.

There's a certain segment of fly tyers, I'm sure that love trying to tie up patterns (and fish them) according to the original recipe. So to get your hands on this card of yarn
Image
is something rare and has been sold on auction & eBay(like) sites for $70 -$200 for the card. :shock: Maybe a bit steep, for just a few yards of yarn, but you'd be one step removed from fishing with Frank Sawyer himself if you had it. Veniard's makes a "Killer Bug Yarn" substitue, which gets mixed reviews because it's NOT that mythical #477.

So how does Walt's Worm come into play? Frank Sawyer had a few fly fishing friends he kept in touch with from Central PA and there are stories of a PA fly fisherman who was also in the yarn producing business whose company made a near perfect copy of the 477, which has since been defunct. Frank Sawyer died in 1980. Skip ahead to April of 1984,

"I was at my vise, tying up a batch of nymphs for a fishing trip the next morning. Before I finished for the evening, I had an idea: tie up a few crane fly larvae. The result was anything but creative. A size 10 nymph hook, wrapped liberally with lead wire, and a fat body of light hare's ear dubbing, that was it. But the simple pattern looked enough like a crane fly larva, sometimes called a water worm, to suit me. My main concern was that the fly was heavy enough, because I was planning to use it as a dropper to help get a fancier nymph pattern to the bottom in the robust spring flows. It was merely to be a sinker with a hook it, and if a trout happened to eat it in the process, that would be a bonus. The next day the water worms that I had tied as an afterthought outfished my favorite nymph patterns about 10 to 1. I had only made four of them and lost them all that day. The next time I went fishing, I carried four dozen of them, and that simple fly has been a staple in my fly boxes every season since. I shared the fly with some of my friends. One of them started calling it Walt's Worm and the name stuck. In a few years, the Walt's Worm gained a tremendous following, and I still get glowing testimonials from other anglers about the effectiveness of the pattern. The Walt's Worm is durable and easy to tie. The only modification I've made to the original version is to blend a little clear Antron into the hare's ear dubbing. Carry an assortment of this pattern in sizes 10 to 16, and you'll be glad you did."

The Walt's Worm story does stop with Walt Young and I guess an interview with him could either make the connection or make more murky & mysterious. Only because of, again, the properties of a Walt's Worm when it gets wet. The Sawyer Killer Bug tyed with #477 submergesd takes on pinkish tinge with red, brown and grey thrown in there. When I twist up Walt's Worm with Hare's Ear Plus #1 it tends to take on properties and hues of the thread you may be tying it with, IMHO. Since the WW is a dubbed body you can have a myriad of light and color changes depending on how "buggy" you tend to make them. So to make a dubbed Killer Bug or something close, you could blend up some Hare's Ear and add these lil pinks, reds, and browns to it. I like to think that in that murky area of the Killer Bug & Walt's Worm therein lay the connection between the two. :geek:

At the end of the day, do the trout "key" in on the color?? Maybe, it's just the shape?? Who really knows, but we as fly fishermen like a good story. Fly Tyers make that story happen for us. Ever since, I've tyed my 1st Walt's Worm at the Somerset show 2 years ago, I swear by it, and won't tie it with nothing but Hare's Ear Plus #1 because I haven't caught fish with any other suggested colors. The only thing I do different is to use different threads, since I tie these up into the hundreds. Talk about confidence in one's fly. With the Killer Bug, it's the same stories. Veniard's has the Killer Bug yarn substitute. Some do well, some don't. Those who have obtained a strand or a card of the original #477 swear by it and say it really does crush fish.

The other great thing about this fly and the Killer Bug, is the simplicity of this trout crusher. It's the kind of fly that many would scoff at. I mean, look at it.......
Image
Dubbing on a hook. :lol: The easier the fly is to tie the more doubt it generates. Sometimes, it's just that case. You may not have to blend up 6 different kinds of fur to get that "right" dubbin. I love going into a place like the Gorge and fishing in between two folks and get a few fish in when they've obviously tried that spot for a while. The pay off is when one of the two ask what you used and show them that Walt's Worm. They give out that "wtf?! look". Priceless. I think it's great that a simple fly like this & the Killer Bug gets such mythical status amongst the museum quality flies that are made from 6 six different exotic birds.

The Killer Bug (as well as the whole Frank Sawyer collection) still can be purchased (for a slight fee) from http://www.sawyernymphs.com/. The site is run by the grandson of Frank Sawyer, so the flies are tied true to recipe. Well except for the Killer Bug. For about $12 a fly you get a Killer Bug that is tyed with "a substitute Chadwick's 477". Now, is it the Veniard's or is it something else?? There are reports of Frank Sawyer using something close to the #477 when he couldn't find it. The mystery of this fly will continue as well as rise of the Walt's Worm. Locally, I see that Shannon's has a cup of them for sale, as of late. Hmmm. :?

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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby HooliganTroutBum on January 19th, 2011, 12:06 pm

onemorecast wrote:Regarding the steelhead fly yarn...It seems the yarn company followed suit and discontinued that color as soon as we discovered how effective it was. I do believe that there are four people on earth who now own the remaining stock. But don't worry - that was LAST YEAR'S hot fly. ;)



Again, a simple fly, made with a material that has the "right properties" that those Steelies love(d). I have a skeine of it (((((evil laugh))))) :twisted: . That yarn is our Chadwick #477. It's obtained a mythical status and has forced many of us to comb the web in search of more of it. That is the passion of this sport, like the title of the Trout Underground suggests: The Lure of Stuff.
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby HooliganTroutBum on January 19th, 2011, 12:13 pm

Youtube had the Oliver Edwards extensive segment on tying up the Killer Bug, but it got yanked. His videos are excellent. :idea: Maybe that's what I should find at the show.

Davie McPhail has the tie on his youtube page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt61pj90nU8
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Twism86 on January 19th, 2011, 12:18 pm

Awesome write up Hooli, thanks for all the info. I wouldnt mine getting my hands on a card of 447 just for the nostalgia of it.

As for the other wool, i wonder where you got that from ;) .
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Mr.Meniscus on January 19th, 2011, 12:53 pm

Here is a link to a little info regarding the discontinue of 477. It also offers some spot on alternatives..

http://poudrecanyonchronicles.blogspot. ... r-bug.html
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby HooliganTroutBum on January 19th, 2011, 1:01 pm

Mr.Meniscus wrote:Here is a link to a little info regarding the discontinue of 477. It also offers some spot on alternatives..

http://poudrecanyonchronicles.blogspot. ... r-bug.html


Ha! I forgot about this blog piece and the Lee Wulff connection.

Thanks.
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Re: chadwicks 477...

Postby Johny L on January 19th, 2011, 7:45 pm

Thanks Hooligan! I'm going to have to give Walt's Worm a go.
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