Warren Glen Musky

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Razorbacker
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Warren Glen Musky

Post by Razorbacker » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:39 pm

has the Musky been refurb'ed just below the old Fiber Marx plant in Warren Glen?

Troutman
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Troutman » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:49 pm

yes. state blew the spill way down a few years ago. re did the stretch from the bridge down to the old spill way.
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joe_panella
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by joe_panella » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:28 am

When is the big dam skated to come down. Seems like it has been talked about for years now.

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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Troutman » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:36 pm

joe_panella wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:28 am
When is the big dam skated to come down. Seems like it has been talked about for years now.
Imo it will be many years from now to come down. A big study will need to be made about the effects & the silt that will be disbursed form it.
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Rusty Spinner
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Rusty Spinner » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:53 am

Troutman wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:49 pm
yes. state blew the spill way down a few years ago. re did the stretch from the bridge down to the old spill way.
The state had nothing to do with removal other than permitting oversight. The Hughesville Mill dam used to be a couple hundreds yards below the Warren Glen Mill, and that dam was removed by the Lower Musconetcong River Restoration Partnership. That dam was removed a few years ago. I happened to have secured the first grant, from US Fish & Wildlife, for the first half of the dam removal feasibility study but had moved on from TU by the time that project was done. They worked from about the 519 bridge to maybe a hundred feet below the former dam.
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Rusty Spinner » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:57 am

Troutman wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:36 pm
joe_panella wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:28 am
When is the big dam skated to come down. Seems like it has been talked about for years now.
Imo it will be many years from now to come down. A big study will need to be made about the effects & the silt that will be disbursed form it.
Joe, not sure these days. The two owners, the Division of Fish & Wildlife and IPPE, the private company that owns the old mills (Hughesville mill is now demolished), have not been able to come to terms on it although there is greater urgency by the day since that structure is failing and it is a high hazard classified dam.

Troutman, the study you are referring to is a bathymetric study of the sediment in the impoundment above the dam. The actual core sampling would take a few days and then it would take some time to study the results and calculate amounts, but it is not overly time consuming nor does it take very long to perform. We know some of this information already and possibly all of the info needed. That I no longer know because I'm no longer directly involved.
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Troutman » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:17 pm

Rusty Spinner wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:53 am
Troutman wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:49 pm
yes. state blew the spill way down a few years ago. re did the stretch from the bridge down to the old spill way.
The state had nothing to do with removal other than permitting oversight. The Hughesville Mill dam used to be a couple hundreds yards below the Warren Glen Mill, and that dam was removed by the Lower Musconetcong River Restoration Partnership. That dam was removed a few years ago. I happened to have secured the first grant, from US Fish & Wildlife, for the first half of the dam removal feasibility study but had moved on from TU by the time that project was done. They worked from about the 519 bridge to maybe a hundred feet below the former dam.
My bad in mis information. I thought the state was directly involved since it was regarding public waters :(
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Troutman
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Troutman » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:20 pm

Rusty Spinner wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:57 am
Troutman wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:36 pm
joe_panella wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:28 am
When is the big dam skated to come down. Seems like it has been talked about for years now.
Imo it will be many years from now to come down. A big study will need to be made about the effects & the silt that will be disbursed form it.
Joe, not sure these days. The two owners, the Division of Fish & Wildlife and IPPE, the private company that owns the old mills (Hughesville mill is now demolished), have not been able to come to terms on it although there is greater urgency by the day since that structure is failing and it is a high hazard classified dam.

Troutman, the study you are referring to is a bathymetric study of the sediment in the impoundment above the dam. The actual core sampling would take a few days and then it would take some time to study the results and calculate amounts, but it is not overly time consuming nor does it take very long to perform. We know some of this information already and possibly all of the info needed. That I no longer know because I'm no longer directly involved.
That would be great if that dam came down. It would create more natural flow up to the next dam in bloomsbury
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Rusty Spinner » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:13 am

Troutman wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:17 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:53 am
Troutman wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:49 pm
yes. state blew the spill way down a few years ago. re did the stretch from the bridge down to the old spill way.
The state had nothing to do with removal other than permitting oversight. The Hughesville Mill dam used to be a couple hundreds yards below the Warren Glen Mill, and that dam was removed by the Lower Musconetcong River Restoration Partnership. That dam was removed a few years ago. I happened to have secured the first grant, from US Fish & Wildlife, for the first half of the dam removal feasibility study but had moved on from TU by the time that project was done. They worked from about the 519 bridge to maybe a hundred feet below the former dam.
My bad in mis information. I thought the state was directly involved since it was regarding public waters :(
Dam ownership is not always well understood. On a river like the Musky which is a border water between towns and counties its entire 42 mile length, dams often have two owners. The Hughesvill Mill dam was an exception as the paper company owned both banks. The water belongs to the state as do the fish in it. But the landowner(s) own the physical dam and they hold all liabilities related to dam ownership. That said, the Warren Glen Mill dam in the Musky Gorge which is about 35' tall is largely owned by IPPE who bought the two paper companies out of receivership, but most of the concrete spillway is owned by the Division of F&W. That impoundment is considered "full" of sediment meaning the lake above is full and now new sediment just moves downstream. I forget now the volume of the sediment in that impoundment, but we calculated it as more material than we could fill the Empire State Building with and nearly all has to come out of the river during any removal of the dam. It will take a long time to remove that material from the site and haul it off depending on the methodology used.
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Fishybig » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:04 pm

Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:13 am
Troutman wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:17 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:53 am


The state had nothing to do with removal other than permitting oversight. The Hughesville Mill dam used to be a couple hundreds yards below the Warren Glen Mill, and that dam was removed by the Lower Musconetcong River Restoration Partnership. That dam was removed a few years ago. I happened to have secured the first grant, from US Fish & Wildlife, for the first half of the dam removal feasibility study but had moved on from TU by the time that project was done. They worked from about the 519 bridge to maybe a hundred feet below the former dam.
My bad in mis information. I thought the state was directly involved since it was regarding public waters :(
Dam ownership is not always well understood. On a river like the Musky which is a border water between towns and counties its entire 42 mile length, dams often have two owners. The Hughesvill Mill dam was an exception as the paper company owned both banks. The water belongs to the state as do the fish in it. But the landowner(s) own the physical dam and they hold all liabilities related to dam ownership. That said, the Warren Glen Mill dam in the Musky Gorge which is about 35' tall is largely owned by IPPE who bought the two paper companies out of receivership, but most of the concrete spillway is owned by the Division of F&W. That impoundment is considered "full" of sediment meaning the lake above is full and now new sediment just moves downstream. I forget now the volume of the sediment in that impoundment, but we calculated it as more material than we could fill the Empire State Building with and nearly all has to come out of the river during any removal of the dam. It will take a long time to remove that material from the site and haul it off depending on the methodology used.
Does this mean that the removal is possibly in the works? or on the back burner because of difficulty and cost??

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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Troutman » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:14 pm

Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:13 am
That impoundment is considered "full" of sediment meaning the lake above is full and now new sediment just moves downstream. I forget now the volume of the sediment in that impoundment, but we calculated it as more material than we could fill the Empire State Building with and nearly all has to come out of the river during any removal of the dam. It will take a long time to remove that material from the site and haul it off depending on the methodology used.
Sounds like there's alot of work cut out before the dam can come down :(
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Rusty Spinner » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:49 pm

Fishybig wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:04 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:13 am
Troutman wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:17 pm

My bad in mis information. I thought the state was directly involved since it was regarding public waters :(
Dam ownership is not always well understood. On a river like the Musky which is a border water between towns and counties its entire 42 mile length, dams often have two owners. The Hughesvill Mill dam was an exception as the paper company owned both banks. The water belongs to the state as do the fish in it. But the landowner(s) own the physical dam and they hold all liabilities related to dam ownership. That said, the Warren Glen Mill dam in the Musky Gorge which is about 35' tall is largely owned by IPPE who bought the two paper companies out of receivership, but most of the concrete spillway is owned by the Division of F&W. That impoundment is considered "full" of sediment meaning the lake above is full and now new sediment just moves downstream. I forget now the volume of the sediment in that impoundment, but we calculated it as more material than we could fill the Empire State Building with and nearly all has to come out of the river during any removal of the dam. It will take a long time to remove that material from the site and haul it off depending on the methodology used.
Does this mean that the removal is possibly in the works? or on the back burner because of difficulty and cost??
I was at one time to be the face for that dam removal when I was still working for TU, but the DEP couldn't bring themselves to allow IPPE to set up a mitigation bank to restore the former paper mills sites. Had they done so, we would have raised the $30+ million it will take to do all the work we had planned at the time, but that included the Hughesville dam removal which has since been done with other funds. But I remain out of the loop these days.

That said, they can't drag their collective feet forever because the dam is high hazard and it is deemed in poor condition. So the clock is ticking, but I don't know where the funding is coming from, any time frames, etc.
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Troutman » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:59 pm

Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:49 pm
we would have raised the $30+ million it will take to do all the work we had planned at the time,
30 MILLION DOLLARS :o :o :o :o :o :!: :!: :!: :!: . Eeeek....
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Rusty Spinner » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:33 pm

Troutman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:59 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:49 pm
we would have raised the $30+ million it will take to do all the work we had planned at the time,
30 MILLION DOLLARS :o :o :o :o :o :!: :!: :!: :!: . Eeeek....
Just for the record, that would be the full removal of two dams, the restoration of roughly 4 miles of river, the removal of both paper mills and ALL associated infrastructure, taking the sediment from the Warren Glen dam out with a gold dredge and segregate materials by size, the use of that fill to build benched wetlands, and the planting for 300' around all flowing water (the Musky plus two tribs). It was to take 3 years to complete. We figured we'd be able to run two shifts per day for about 6 months out of each year doing the dredging. Most of the other work like building benched wetlands could be ongoing year round. The big dam would likely be lowered in stages, drying out the sediment upstream so that we can access it more readily.
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Troutman » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:45 pm

Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:33 pm
Troutman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:59 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:49 pm
we would have raised the $30+ million it will take to do all the work we had planned at the time,
30 MILLION DOLLARS :o :o :o :o :o :!: :!: :!: :!: . Eeeek....
Just for the record, that would be the full removal of two dams, the restoration of roughly 4 miles of river, the removal of both paper mills and ALL associated infrastructure, taking the sediment from the Warren Glen dam out with a gold dredge and segregate materials by size, the use of that fill to build benched wetlands, and the planting for 300' around all flowing water (the Musky plus two tribs). It was to take 3 years to complete. We figured we'd be able to run two shifts per day for about 6 months out of each year doing the dredging. Most of the other work like building benched wetlands could be ongoing year round. The big dam would likely be lowered in stages, drying out the sediment upstream so that we can access it more readily.
Man... Thats sounds like alot of work. So the price tag $$$$$ is understandable now ;) . Guess a few million mite be shaved off since the old spillway is gone now. Freeing up that area would be really NICE.....
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Rusty Spinner » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:42 am

Troutman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:45 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:33 pm
Troutman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:59 pm

30 MILLION DOLLARS :o :o :o :o :o :!: :!: :!: :!: . Eeeek....
Just for the record, that would be the full removal of two dams, the restoration of roughly 4 miles of river, the removal of both paper mills and ALL associated infrastructure, taking the sediment from the Warren Glen dam out with a gold dredge and segregate materials by size, the use of that fill to build benched wetlands, and the planting for 300' around all flowing water (the Musky plus two tribs). It was to take 3 years to complete. We figured we'd be able to run two shifts per day for about 6 months out of each year doing the dredging. Most of the other work like building benched wetlands could be ongoing year round. The big dam would likely be lowered in stages, drying out the sediment upstream so that we can access it more readily.
Man... Thats sounds like alot of work. So the price tag $$$$$ is understandable now ;) . Guess a few million mite be shaved off since the old spillway is gone now. Freeing up that area would be really NICE.....
The end goal was to turn over two contiguous properties that were fully restored of about 177 acres each to the Division for addition to the Musconetcong WMA properties.
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Drossi » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:56 am

Troutman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:59 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:49 pm
we would have raised the $30+ million it will take to do all the work we had planned at the time,
30 MILLION DOLLARS :o :o :o :o :o :!: :!: :!: :!: . Eeeek....
That could be cheap if the sediment turns out to have "nasty" stuff in it.
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Rusty Spinner » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:22 am

Drossi wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:56 am
Troutman wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:59 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:49 pm
we would have raised the $30+ million it will take to do all the work we had planned at the time,
30 MILLION DOLLARS :o :o :o :o :o :!: :!: :!: :!: . Eeeek....
That could be cheap if the sediment turns out to have "nasty" stuff in it.
It's good. And even if it happened not to be, it could have been spread or could be spread on the former spray fields used by the now demolished Hughesville Mill property because that land is deed restricted to never allow human habitation due to past spraying of chemicals as part of the old paper mill's production output, something no longer allowed by DEP or EPA from what I understand.
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Re: Warren Glen Musky

Post by Razorbacker » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:54 pm

I have to say, I was a little uneasy walking below the "waterfall" of the little branch the splits off at the big dam and rejoins the main stem a couple hundred yards upstream from the mill foot bridge. I imagine not wanting to linger too long beneath the big dam itself... but I did not make it up that far.

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