Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

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Twism86
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Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Thu May 21, 2020 1:43 pm

This topic comes up from time to time and seeing a post in a recent thread brought it to mind again. Special regulations areas, be it Catch and Release or Wild Trout Stream tend to have this line of barbless hooks written into them. The same goes for other states as well. I always ask myself, why? Do you agree with it?

Its really a social issue when you dig down to the heart of it. People THINK it is better and therefore should be a regulation. However, if you look at literally any research that is out there on trout mortality based on hook type there is almost no difference between a single barbless hook, a single barbed hook or a regular treble hook. A few single % at most which statistically speaking in the real world, means nothing. One article showed a 0.3% difference in mortality between barbed and barbless flies! Does that warrant a special regulation? I think not! Do the research but I will provide some links that show the numbers. I dont want to hear, "Oh well this one trout bled a lot and probably died because I had a time getting my barbed hook out so now I only fish barbless." That is not research, that is a single event that is not indicative of reality. If that is your argument, dont bother to post.

Where the REAL difference is, as backed by research (not your feelings), is the type of bait used. Artificial bait being flies, lures or whatever had mortality rates in the single digits, regardless of hook type. Baits on the other hand, especially live, had high mortality rates, 50% or greater at times. This makes sense and I dont need to explain that a fish swallowing a hook with live bait had low chance of survival. Special regulation areas where C&R or preserving wild trout is priority should be artificial only without a restriction on hook type or gear.

Do I want to see barbless hook regulations disappear, yes. Do I think it will happen, probably not. They are easy to "sell" as being part of good conservation and most people wont bother to fight it. I dont like unnecessary regulations that put undue restrictions on my gear and how I want to fish. Im not going to ruin some of flies just to fish a particular stretch of water when that regulation is unwarranted.

Here are a few quick google search results that show what I was talking about:

https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... /M02-171.1

https://www.flyflinger.com/wpblog/?p=360

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commi ... _Trout.pdf

There is a lot we can do to try and ensure the fish we catch survive but barbless hooks is NOT one of them! Dont fish in high temps, land your fish and release them quickly. Only handle them with wet hands and keep them in the water as much as possible. Dont drag them into the dirt. Fish artificial baits. All of these things will help trout survive but inevitably some will not make it, its just a truth of the sport. Barbless do nothing to change that.

Tom
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

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lightenup
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by lightenup » Thu May 21, 2020 2:04 pm

Twism86 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 1:43 pm
This topic comes up from time to time and seeing a post in a recent thread brought it to mind again. Special regulations areas, be it Catch and Release or Wild Trout Stream tend to have this line of barbless hooks written into them. The same goes for other states as well. I always ask myself, why? Do you agree with it?

Its really a social issue when you dig down to the heart of it. People THINK it is better and therefore should be a regulation. However, if you look at literally any research that is out there on trout mortality based on hook type there is almost no difference between a single barbless hook, a single barbed hook or a regular treble hook. A few single % at most which statistically speaking in the real world, means nothing. One article showed a 0.3% difference in mortality between barbed and barbless flies! Does that warrant a special regulation? I think not! Do the research but I will provide some links that show the numbers. I dont want to hear, "Oh well this one trout bled a lot and probably died because I had a time getting my barbed hook out so now I only fish barbless." That is not research, that is a single event that is not indicative of reality. If that is your argument, dont bother to post.

Where the REAL difference is, as backed by research (not your feelings), is the type of bait used. Artificial bait being flies, lures or whatever had mortality rates in the single digits, regardless of hook type. Baits on the other hand, especially live, had high mortality rates, 50% or greater at times. This makes sense and I dont need to explain that a fish swallowing a hook with live bait had low chance of survival. Special regulation areas where C&R or preserving wild trout is priority should be artificial only without a restriction on hook type or gear.

Do I want to see barbless hook regulations disappear, yes. Do I think it will happen, probably not. They are easy to "sell" as being part of good conservation and most people wont bother to fight it. I dont like unnecessary regulations that put undue restrictions on my gear and how I want to fish. Im not going to ruin some of flies just to fish a particular stretch of water when that regulation is unwarranted.

Here are a few quick google search results that show what I was talking about:

https://afspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... /M02-171.1

https://www.flyflinger.com/wpblog/?p=360

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commi ... _Trout.pdf

There is a lot we can do to try and ensure the fish we catch survive but barbless hooks is NOT one of them! Dont fish in high temps, land your fish and release them quickly. Only handle them with wet hands and keep them in the water as much as possible. Dont drag them into the dirt. Fish artificial baits. All of these things will help trout survive but inevitably some will not make it, its just a truth of the sport. Barbless do nothing to change that. :o

Tom
Stick a barbed hook in your arm...the whole way..pull it out. Now take a barbless hook and stick it your arm. .then pull it out..
Tell me about your experience with that. You won't die, it will rip a bigger hole in your arm, you will bleed more and be in more pain...
I'll fish barbless, not only for that reason, but it is more difficult to land a fish..I like making :) things challenging as well.

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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Thu May 21, 2020 2:11 pm

lightenup wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:04 pm
Stick a barbed hook in your arm...the whole way..pull it out. Now take a barbless hook and stick it your arm. .then pull it out..
Tell me about your experience with that. You won't die, it will rip a bigger hole in your arm, you will bleed more and be in more pain...
I'll fish barbless, not only for that reason, but it is more difficult to land a fish..I like making :) things challenging as well.
I have had enough hooks in me over my years fishing, ill pass. Wounds heal on people and fish.

Also, im out there to catch fish and to land them, not have them get off during the fight. Fish find ways be hard enough to catch on some days, im not giving up the advantage of a barb. Im not advocating that you shouldnt fish barbless if you want to, you are free to do so.
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

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lightenup
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by lightenup » Thu May 21, 2020 2:42 pm

Twism86 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:11 pm
lightenup wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:04 pm
Stick a barbed hook in your arm...the whole way..pull it out. Now take a barbless hook and stick it your arm. .then pull it out..
Tell me about your experience with that. You won't die, it will rip a bigger hole in your arm, you will bleed more and be in more pain...
I'll fish barbless, not only for that reason, but it is more difficult to land a fish..I like making :) things challenging as well.
I have had enough hooks in me over my years fishing, ill pass. Wounds heal on people and fish.

Also, im out there to catch fish and to land them, not have them get off during the fight. Fish find ways be hard enough to catch on some days, im not giving up the advantage of a barb. Im not advocating that you shouldnt fish barbless if you want to, you are free to do so.
The days of needing to catch fish easily are long gone..soon Ill be tring to lasso them...I did one last night around the tail..second lassoed and landed trout in my life. It's an accomplishment. :D
I won't judge you for using barbs, or a spinning rod or bait even...just my 2 cents. I love fishing, I will do it at the lowest impact possible. To enviornment and fish, no matter how miniscule.

CheeseburgerFly
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by CheeseburgerFly » Thu May 21, 2020 2:50 pm

I definitely agree with lightenup. I enjoy the added challenge and most of the trout at the KLG would would have mouths that look like swiss cheese without the regulation.

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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by BiggerThomas » Thu May 21, 2020 2:57 pm

Please tell me the subject title of this thread was meant to be a pun so I don't feel so alone in the universe... :lol:
Every Night & every Morn
Some to Misery are Born
Every Morn and every Night
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to Endless Night
___________________________
--William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence"

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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Thu May 21, 2020 3:27 pm

BiggerThomas wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 2:57 pm
Please tell me the subject title of this thread was meant to be a pun so I don't feel so alone in the universe... :lol:
Yes that was intentional :D
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

NJpatbee
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by NJpatbee » Thu May 21, 2020 4:02 pm

I went barbless for C&R way before it was required. I know that I do less damage releasing a trout than with a barb.

garden hackle
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by garden hackle » Thu May 21, 2020 5:53 pm

I always, almost always fish with a barbless hook for one reason that lightenup mentioned. If I accidently hook flesh or clothing, it is always easier to remove a barbless hook. While that alone is a good reasons to forbid barbed hooks, I disagree it should be in the regulations. You cannot legislate Common sense.

Is there an increased mortality rate with barbed hooks? Maybe, but it probably will be marginally different. What about catch rate using a barbed hook vs. barbless. As the skill of the angler decreases, the catch rate probably increases with a barbed hook (unscientific conclusion).

I know someone that had a treble hook lure shot back at him and it stuck in his cheek. It had barbs and he could not remove it himself. When he got to the emergency room, they asked how long it was stuck in his cheek. He said about 5 hours. They asked why it took so long to get to the emergency room, he said he had just started fishing and the bite was on. Had he used a barbless hook, I am positive he would have just removed the lure and not look like some pierced goth fisherman for the following five hours.

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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Jaybird » Thu May 21, 2020 6:14 pm

Yea I fish barbless cause I want to take it out of me easier , but I don't have much of an issue losing fish because barbless hooks , if I do chalk it up to operator error .

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lightenup
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by lightenup » Thu May 21, 2020 6:19 pm

Jaybird wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:14 pm
Yea I fish barbless cause I want to take it out of me easier , but I don't have much of an issue losing fish because barbless hooks , if I do chalk it up to operator error .
Absolutely...and if the line breaks, you broke it off, not the fis..within reason of course.

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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Vance » Thu May 21, 2020 8:22 pm

Hi, I always fish barbless because as the one person went to the emergency room I wound up at a doctors office with a treble hook in my thumb and it had a barb on the hook it was in so deep even the doctor had a hard time getting it out. Many times I have had a fly caught in the back of my neck being barbless I would just reach around and take it out with out a problem much easier to take out of a fish also and since I don’t keep any trout I really do not care if they get off. Barbless easier to get out of the fish and out of yourself. Bill the mailman

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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by BiggerThomas » Thu May 21, 2020 9:36 pm

Every Night & every Morn
Some to Misery are Born
Every Morn and every Night
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to Endless Night
___________________________
--William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence"

Troutman
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Troutman » Thu May 21, 2020 10:12 pm

I spin fish as everyone should know on here by now ;) :lol: . When I go for wild trout. I use single barbless hooks on my lures. I dont use treble or crushed hooks. I tend to protect wild fish more then stocked 1's. For the stocked trout I use single barb lures. As the lures already incorporate the barb. usually the hook itself is made so cheaply. That if you try to file the bard down. the hook itself will break. I use different lures for wild vs stock trout. I am not against fishing with barbless hooks as I C&R anyway. I just want to see the fish before he spits the hook back @ me :lol: :lol: :lol:
Was known as Troutman1

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StinkyWetFly
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by StinkyWetFly » Fri May 22, 2020 8:21 am

I have started to pinch my barbs down as best as possible lately...I do have some barbless flies too.
I feel like it is just a natural progression if you want to practice catch and release (with trout around here at least). I am no expert but I have caught fish with the best intentions and had a barb do some damage. JUST SAYING 8-)

From last night...pinched barb copper john size 16. Still working on perfecting the ol' net pic ;)
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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:24 am

Vance wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 8:22 pm
Hi, I always fish barbless because as the one person went to the emergency room I wound up at a doctors office with a treble hook in my thumb and it had a barb on the hook it was in so deep even the doctor had a hard time getting it out. Many times I have had a fly caught in the back of my neck being barbless I would just reach around and take it out with out a problem much easier to take out of a fish also and since I don’t keep any trout I really do not care if they get off. Barbless easier to get out of the fish and out of yourself. Bill the mailman
You have to push it through and cut it! I have done this technique many times on myself and friends. Still not going to fish barbless hooks.
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:29 am

So it looks like most people here fish barbless because it’s your own personal preference, which is fine. Fish how you want to fish. I still don’t think we need a regulation for it when it does not prevent excess fish mortality. Getting a hook out of yourself easy is a good reason for you to fish barbless if you want, but not just grounds for regulation. If the #s don’t support a need for the regulation, it should go.
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

garden hackle
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by garden hackle » Fri May 22, 2020 8:41 am

Twism86 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:29 am
So it looks like most people here fish barbless because it’s your own personal preference, which is fine. Fish how you want to fish. I still don’t think we need a regulation for it when it does not prevent excess fish mortality. Getting a hook out of yourself easy is a good reason for you to fish barbless if you want, but not just grounds for regulation. If the #s don’t support a need for the regulation, it should go.
Contact DEP page

https://www.nj.gov/cgi-bin/dep/contactdep.pl

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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Jaybird » Fri May 22, 2020 8:45 am

Twism86 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:29 am
So it looks like most people here fish barbless because it’s your own personal preference, which is fine. Fish how you want to fish. I still don’t think we need a regulation for it when it does not prevent excess fish mortality. Getting a hook out of yourself easy is a good reason for you to fish barbless if you want, but not just grounds for regulation. If the #s don’t support a need for the regulation, it should go.
Agree with everything thing you said , but I also have have no problem letting fisheries biologist making that call , I have confidence in experts .

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lightenup
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by lightenup » Fri May 22, 2020 8:51 am

Like anything in this world we can find evidence supporting both sides. Here is an article that has info on barbs doubling mortality rates in fish.
https://theflyfishingbasics.com/barbed- ... ess-hooks/

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