Van Campens restoration project.

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Rusty Spinner
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by Rusty Spinner » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:42 pm

lightenup wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:45 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:20 pm
lightenup wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:22 pm

It wasn't Fred Burroughs chapter. I won't say here as it was more than 10 years ago....you know these people well Rusty. Yes Federal (my bad) park Rangers agreeed to come along as there were many unsavory people around Vam Campen then. Especially the Glen. The Feds played along TU wouldn't and when I told them that we weren't doing it....they said it figures with TU...so it wasnt the parks fault. I am now perturbed again so TU can piss off for another year ;)
Just to circle back on this, the Fred Burroughs TU chapter covers that area. Had you wanted to work with TU on a stream cleanup, it should have been with that chapter. Chapters don't like stepping on other chapter's toes when it comes to things like that. We reach out for approval before we cross territories. My guess is whatever pushback you received, that had something to do with it at the time.
That is a big fat excuse. They should have put me in touch with that chapter then instead of saying it was no ones area. BIG FAT AND LAZY...eat pizza, drink beer, have raffles, stock with the state...that was all they were doing. I hope times have changed.
I totally agree they should have steered you in the right direction. You can always reach out to me although I'm no longer in any leadership roles within TU to avoid any appearance of favoritism since we do a lot of work for both the chapters and staff depending on which state. But I know the way things should work and who to talk to. Sorry you had that experience.
"A sinking fly is closer to Hell" - Unknown

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lightenup
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by lightenup » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:01 pm

Rusty Spinner wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:42 pm
lightenup wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:45 pm
Rusty Spinner wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:20 pm


Just to circle back on this, the Fred Burroughs TU chapter covers that area. Had you wanted to work with TU on a stream cleanup, it should have been with that chapter. Chapters don't like stepping on other chapter's toes when it comes to things like that. We reach out for approval before we cross territories. My guess is whatever pushback you received, that had something to do with it at the time.
That is a big fat excuse. They should have put me in touch with that chapter then instead of saying it was no ones area. BIG FAT AND LAZY...eat pizza, drink beer, have raffles, stock with the state...that was all they were doing. I hope times have changed.
I totally agree they should have steered you in the right direction. You can always reach out to me although I'm no longer in any leadership roles within TU to avoid any appearance of favoritism since we do a lot of work for both the chapters and staff depending on which state. But I know the way things should work and who to talk to. Sorry you had that experience.
Thanks Rusty. I didn't know all you maroons back then...;)


martalus
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by martalus » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:50 am

Lots of interesting information and thoughts on this thread! It's a beautiful stream with wonderful trout from all three species. While we all know and appreciate that, other people who are not into fishing see it as the perfect place for a bbq party with friends and family. While I obviously dont agree with letting it be trashed, I can definitely understand the impulse to drink beer and BBQ in/next to a beautiful and refreshing mountain creek with friends and family If we are honest, we all understand that impulse, irrespective of ethnicity. Unfortunately protecting a public resource is not something that comes natural for any community in the US-watch the national parks series by Ken Burns-in the beginning, people just destroyed/dominated nature. Then when some decided it was worth preserving, there was still no plan/culture to protect it. Sometime after Yellowstone was founded some dude tried to hunt and kill the remaining bison and people built all kinds of hotels and started trashing the place and there wasnt even budget to patrol/protect the place. I guess I am saying it takes time and people need to be educated and unfortunately you need enforcement of the rules so that all can enjoy the public space, whether its trout fishing or picnicking with friends and family. Most third world countries dont have public spaces like we do-the rich control land and even national parks can be inaccessible.

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coaltrout
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by coaltrout » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:50 am

martalus, well said. "you need enforcement of the rules so that all can enjoy the public space" exactly.

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46er
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by 46er » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:32 am

"Sometime after Yellowstone was founded some dude tried to hunt and kill the remaining bison and people built all kinds of hotels and started trashing the place and there wasnt even budget to patrol/protect the place."

Have you been there lately? Some things never change, although most is understandable. But now it is the govt killing the Bison and increasing hotel capacity with no increase in ranger numbers. It is similar in many other popular NP holdings. The original intent stated on the Roosevelt Arch may have been too broad a message for current times.



Image
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martalus
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by martalus » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:10 am

46er wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:32 am
"Sometime after Yellowstone was founded some dude tried to hunt and kill the remaining bison and people built all kinds of hotels and started trashing the place and there wasnt even budget to patrol/protect the place."

Have you been there lately? Some things never change, although most is understandable. But now it is the govt killing the Bison and increasing hotel capacity with no increase in ranger numbers. It is similar in many other popular NP holdings. The original intent stated on the Roosevelt Arch may have been too broad a message for current times.

Image
Unfortunately, I have never made it out there, but hope to one day. Looks the same balancing act exists then as now at Yellowstone as well as by Delaware water Gap-how to preserve and regulate a common good for the public's enjoyment without destroying it!

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lightenup
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by lightenup » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:10 pm

martalus wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:10 am
46er wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:32 am
"Sometime after Yellowstone was founded some dude tried to hunt and kill the remaining bison and people built all kinds of hotels and started trashing the place and there wasnt even budget to patrol/protect the place."

Have you been there lately? Some things never change, although most is understandable. But now it is the govt killing the Bison and increasing hotel capacity with no increase in ranger numbers. It is similar in many other popular NP holdings. The original intent stated on the Roosevelt Arch may have been too broad a message for current times.

Image
Unfortunately, I have never made it out there, but hope to one day. Looks the same balancing act exists then as now at Yellowstone as well as by Delaware water Gap-how to preserve and regulate a common good for the public's enjoyment without destroying it!
The odds are a little more in natures favor in Yellowstone. I have watched people bring themselves and their children with in single digit feet from Elk and Bison, some of those people get sorted out by the wildlife...idiots!!!! :D

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BiggerThomas
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by BiggerThomas » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:20 pm

martalus wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:50 am
Lots of interesting information and thoughts on this thread! It's a beautiful stream with wonderful trout from all three species. While we all know and appreciate that, other people who are not into fishing see it as the perfect place for a bbq party with friends and family. While I obviously dont agree with letting it be trashed, I can definitely understand the impulse to drink beer and BBQ in/next to a beautiful and refreshing mountain creek with friends and family If we are honest, we all understand that impulse, irrespective of ethnicity. Unfortunately protecting a public resource is not something that comes natural for any community in the US-watch the national parks series by Ken Burns-in the beginning, people just destroyed/dominated nature. Then when some decided it was worth preserving, there was still no plan/culture to protect it. Sometime after Yellowstone was founded some dude tried to hunt and kill the remaining bison and people built all kinds of hotels and started trashing the place and there wasnt even budget to patrol/protect the place. I guess I am saying it takes time and people need to be educated and unfortunately you need enforcement of the rules so that all can enjoy the public space, whether its trout fishing or picnicking with friends and family. Most third world countries dont have public spaces like we do-the rich control land and even national parks can be inaccessible.
Spin it any way you want, old boy, but the poet and the biologist both tell us that rare and doomed is the creature that fouls its own nest. The American Indian knew this long before he needed Ken Burns' announcement.
Every Night & every Morn
Some to Misery are Born
Every Morn and every Night
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to Endless Night
___________________________
--William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence"

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lightenup
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by lightenup » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:42 pm

BiggerThomas wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:20 pm
martalus wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:50 am
Lots of interesting information and thoughts on this thread! It's a beautiful stream with wonderful trout from all three species. While we all know and appreciate that, other people who are not into fishing see it as the perfect place for a bbq party with friends and family. While I obviously dont agree with letting it be trashed, I can definitely understand the impulse to drink beer and BBQ in/next to a beautiful and refreshing mountain creek with friends and family If we are honest, we all understand that impulse, irrespective of ethnicity. Unfortunately protecting a public resource is not something that comes natural for any community in the US-watch the national parks series by Ken Burns-in the beginning, people just destroyed/dominated nature. Then when some decided it was worth preserving, there was still no plan/culture to protect it. Sometime after Yellowstone was founded some dude tried to hunt and kill the remaining bison and people built all kinds of hotels and started trashing the place and there wasnt even budget to patrol/protect the place. I guess I am saying it takes time and people need to be educated and unfortunately you need enforcement of the rules so that all can enjoy the public space, whether its trout fishing or picnicking with friends and family. Most third world countries dont have public spaces like we do-the rich control land and even national parks can be inaccessible.
Spin it any way you want, old boy, but the poet and the biologist both tell us that rare and doomed is the creature that fouls its own nest. The American Indian knew this long before he needed Ken Burns' announcement.
Lightenup likes biggerthomas' post

Vance
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Yellowstone Nation Park

Post by Vance » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:11 am

Hello, If you have never been to Yellowstone National Park you Have to go. It is the most beautiful place I have ever seen in my life. When they say Montana is big sky country they were talking about Yellowstone. I will never forget walking on the Yellowstone bridge and having a bison walking down the middle of the road towards me. It had traffic backed up for a half mile or so. I knew I couldn’t make it back to the car so I just stood there waiting to see what it was going to do. My only option was jumping into the Yellowstone river if it was going after me. From the bridge to the river was about eight foot drop. But it paid no attention to me and kept on walking across the bridge. Let me tell you all some thing Bison are huge . It was about six feet away from me and let me tell you some thing else you do not want to tangle with one of them. Again everyone has to see Yellowstone in there life time. Bill Vance. Bill the mailman

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46er
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by 46er » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:32 am

lightenup wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:10 pm
The odds are a little more in natures favor in Yellowstone. I have watched people bring themselves and their children with in single digit feet from Elk and Bison, some of those people get sorted out by the wildlife...idiots!!!! :D
In the 20+ years I spent time out there, that hasn't changed, but gotten worse. They have a name for those folks, Touron's, a cross of tourist and moron.
There is nothing quite like sitting in the sage watching nature take its course and hear a big diesel rumble up and 53 Tourons empty out of the tour bus, all with the same question, What are you looking at? :roll: Maybe they should not have called it a park?

Besides the touron's, the Bison are probably the most dangerous mammal in the park. When their tail goes up, it is too late. They usually have this video running at the VC's.

https://www.nps.gov/media/video/view.ht ... 246CF08649
aka; Ralph
________________________________

The irony of the Human condition is that we are so focused on reaching some point in our journey, some happiness, or some goal, that we seem to forget that the journey itself is where life happens.

martalus
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by martalus » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:56 am

BiggerThomas wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:20 pm
martalus wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:50 am
Lots of interesting information and thoughts on this thread! It's a beautiful stream with wonderful trout from all three species. While we all know and appreciate that, other people who are not into fishing see it as the perfect place for a bbq party with friends and family. While I obviously dont agree with letting it be trashed, I can definitely understand the impulse to drink beer and BBQ in/next to a beautiful and refreshing mountain creek with friends and family If we are honest, we all understand that impulse, irrespective of ethnicity. Unfortunately protecting a public resource is not something that comes natural for any community in the US-watch the national parks series by Ken Burns-in the beginning, people just destroyed/dominated nature. Then when some decided it was worth preserving, there was still no plan/culture to protect it. Sometime after Yellowstone was founded some dude tried to hunt and kill the remaining bison and people built all kinds of hotels and started trashing the place and there wasnt even budget to patrol/protect the place. I guess I am saying it takes time and people need to be educated and unfortunately you need enforcement of the rules so that all can enjoy the public space, whether its trout fishing or picnicking with friends and family. Most third world countries dont have public spaces like we do-the rich control land and even national parks can be inaccessible.
Spin it any way you want, old boy, but the poet and the biologist both tell us that rare and doomed is the creature that fouls its own nest. The American Indian knew this long before he needed Ken Burns' announcement.
I think we agree-people shouldnt crap up the environment-I am just saying that the issue doesnt need to be unnecessarily infused with ethnic/racial animus as different waves of people have grappled and continue to grapple with how to best enjoy public areas together in balance. Thus enforcement of rules while building a culture of conservation is key.

Bubba Zinetti
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by Bubba Zinetti » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:37 pm

I think we agree-people shouldnt crap up the environment-I am just saying that the issue doesnt need to be unnecessarily infused with ethnic/racial animus as different waves of people have grappled and continue to grapple with how to best enjoy public areas together in balance. Thus enforcement of rules while building a culture of conservation is key.
Are you mad? Have seen the internet? You response is even handed, well balanced and hopeful. Therefore we reject it....

Thank you very much for your comment. Like many anglers and travelers we have seen the worst humanity has to offer. We have also seen the best humanity has to offer. I have had so many great interactions with fellow anglers, and hikers, that I try to focus on those instead of awful interactions that I have had.

Razorbacker
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by Razorbacker » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:20 am

I may have missed it earlier., but can someone explain the scope of work being done? It is primarily deadfall cleanup in the stream and on the banks? There is no stream feature "restoration" planned is there?

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46er
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by 46er » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:35 am

Razorbacker wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:20 am
I may have missed it earlier., but can someone explain the scope of work being done?
It is described in the link in the original post.
aka; Ralph
________________________________

The irony of the Human condition is that we are so focused on reaching some point in our journey, some happiness, or some goal, that we seem to forget that the journey itself is where life happens.

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Drossi
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Re: Van Campens restoration project.

Post by Drossi » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:38 am

46er wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:32 am
lightenup wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:10 pm
The odds are a little more in natures favor in Yellowstone. I have watched people bring themselves and their children with in single digit feet from Elk and Bison, some of those people get sorted out by the wildlife...idiots!!!! :D
In the 20+ years I spent time out there, that hasn't changed, but gotten worse. They have a name for those folks, Touron's, a cross of tourist and moron.
There is nothing quite like sitting in the sage watching nature take its course and hear a big diesel rumble up and 53 Tourons empty out of the tour bus, all with the same question, What are you looking at? :roll: Maybe they should not have called it a park?

Besides the touron's, the Bison are probably the most dangerous mammal in the park. When their tail goes up, it is too late. They usually have this video running at the VC's.

https://www.nps.gov/media/video/view.ht ... 246CF08649
They can't help themselves cause they don't know any better. They've been Disney-fied to think that all animals are lovable and want to be cuddled by humans. They even pump this shit in schools. Years ago I got into it with one of my boys grade school teachers about this. She was trying to teach them about racoons which is fine but she was portraying them as cute and furry. I took exception to the fact that she didn't explain to the 7 year old's that it's not appropriate to approach a racoon, nor did she explain that they are a nocturnal animal and that seeing them in the day time isn't normal indicating that they could be sick and if they did see one in the day they should alert an adult.
You're NOT worthy
Purveyor of the dark art of the long rod
slingin' cane

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