That article is not scholarly and has no numbers or evident to support its claims.lightenup wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 8:51 amLike anything in this world we can find evidence supporting both sides. Here is an article that has info on barbs doubling mortality rates in fish.
https://theflyfishingbasics.com/barbed- ... ess-hooks/
Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
There is a link in the article that says in orange, click here for references and the such...scroll down the page and there are several scholarly texts supporting the arguement.Twism86 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 9:13 amThat article is not scholarly and has no numbers or evident to support its claims.lightenup wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 8:51 amLike anything in this world we can find evidence supporting both sides. Here is an article that has info on barbs doubling mortality rates in fish.
https://theflyfishingbasics.com/barbed- ... ess-hooks/
- njcatchrelease
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
I've seen way too many fishermen on the river (both fly and spin guys) struggle to get the hook out of the fish they just landed. I feel that the faster the hook can be removed the better, especially with everyone taking longer to release each fish because they need their grip and grin photo.
Tight Lines
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Click through two articles then more links to find article with date, the first link in poorly written if it doesn’t include the direct numbers and references. D on that students paperlightenup wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 9:35 amThere is a link in the article that says in orange, click here for references and the such...scroll down the page and there are several scholarly texts supporting the arguement.Twism86 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 9:13 amThat article is not scholarly and has no numbers or evident to support its claims.lightenup wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 8:51 amLike anything in this world we can find evidence supporting both sides. Here is an article that has info on barbs doubling mortality rates in fish.
https://theflyfishingbasics.com/barbed- ... ess-hooks/
A quick viewing of the links I finally got to still support my arguments. The difference is minimal. Bait is real issue if C&R is the goal. Next!
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Yes, angler skill will always be a greater factor than the hook type used.njcatchrelease wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 12:29 pmI've seen way too many fishermen on the river (both fly and spin guys) struggle to get the hook out of the fish they just landed. I feel that the faster the hook can be removed the better, especially with everyone taking longer to release each fish because they need their grip and grin photo.
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Im fine if a trophy fish spits a barbless hook back @ me. I just want to see him-her 1st. Its the unknown that kills me
Was known as Troutman1
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
I disagree. The article and the support facts are well written amd conclusive. My friend..I believe firmly to each their own. The facts, no matter how slim, and public opinion, for many reasons mentioned, are against you. I am glad you have this forum so we can discuss these things instead of the other place where we go to call people boobs.. But thats fun also. Enjoy your dayTwism86 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 12:37 pmClick through two articles then more links to find article with date, the first link in poorly written if it doesn’t include the direct numbers and references. D on that students paper
A quick viewing of the links I finally got to still support my arguments. The difference is minimal. Bait is real issue if C&R is the goal. Next!
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. You can make numbers say what you want them to say. I have 40 years of experience going back to when I (gasp.....) fished BAIT!
Here goes:
1) I lost plenty of fish during the fight when I used barbed bait hooks and barbed flies.
2) IMHO it takes more force on a hookset to drive in a barbed hook.
3) Barbless hooks are a) easier to get out of a fish b) easier to get out of me/my clothing
I'm a disciple of pinching down the barbs on my flies (then sharpening the hook), it's just so much easier for me to release fish, just pop the hook out while they are in the water or net with out the barb impeding it. Often the fly comes out in the net once tension is released.
I use them, don't care if you do or don't, won't change cause study x, y, or z says it doesn't matter.
Here goes:
1) I lost plenty of fish during the fight when I used barbed bait hooks and barbed flies.
2) IMHO it takes more force on a hookset to drive in a barbed hook.
3) Barbless hooks are a) easier to get out of a fish b) easier to get out of me/my clothing
I'm a disciple of pinching down the barbs on my flies (then sharpening the hook), it's just so much easier for me to release fish, just pop the hook out while they are in the water or net with out the barb impeding it. Often the fly comes out in the net once tension is released.
I use them, don't care if you do or don't, won't change cause study x, y, or z says it doesn't matter.
You're NOT worthy
Purveyor of the dark art of the long rod
slingin' cane
Purveyor of the dark art of the long rod
slingin' cane
- BiggerThomas
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Suggested reading for any half-wit; mandatory reading for anyone with a college degree or higher:
https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statisti ... B00351DSX2
"Most anglers spend their lives in making rules for trout, and trout spend theirs in breaking them."
-From Letters to Young Fly-Fishers, (1926) Sir George Aston,
-From Letters to Young Fly-Fishers, (1926) Sir George Aston,
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Without getting into details of why, or the merits of barbed or barbless - I prefer and purchase flies tied on barbless hooks. If barbed I pinch them down.
Until one has loved an animal a part of one's soul remains unawakened.
Anatole France
Anatole France
- Rusty Spinner
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
How quickly we forget. These new regulations went into effect only a couple of short years ago and were by consensus of anglers that responded to the Division's survey about wild trout. The Division adopted them simply because of the fact that the majority wanted barbless and not because of science behind barbed versus barbless and they said as much. I think one in one hundred NJ hunters and anglers could tell you how regulations are made. That means most here don't know that we regulate hunting, fishing and trapping not only based on science, but also based on popular culture at the time. Barbless hooks give more than half of all trout anglers the feeling they are doing something beneficial either for the wild trout or themselves by adopting such regulations. I think it's also one of the regulations not being enforced since I regularly read the CO reports and have yet to see any citations written for fishing with barbed hooks in a barbless area.
That said, I smash down the barbs of all freshwater flies, including streamers. I often forget to smash them down on any store-bought flies. This spring I got a store bought caddis wet fly buried deep in my hand and it was no fun pulling back out.
That said, I smash down the barbs of all freshwater flies, including streamers. I often forget to smash them down on any store-bought flies. This spring I got a store bought caddis wet fly buried deep in my hand and it was no fun pulling back out.
"A sinking fly is closer to Hell" - Unknown
- BiggerThomas
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Rusty Spinner wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 11:44 am[M]ost here don't know that we regulate hunting, fishing and trapping not only based on science, but also based on popular culture at the time.
That's good to hear, but I doubt many would ultimately find that surprising. The word "policy" comes from the Greek "politeia," which roughly means "citizenship' or "people." Unless you're designing policy for robots, you have to consider the citizen culture.
"Most anglers spend their lives in making rules for trout, and trout spend theirs in breaking them."
-From Letters to Young Fly-Fishers, (1926) Sir George Aston,
-From Letters to Young Fly-Fishers, (1926) Sir George Aston,
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Hey Twism, and everyone else. New to the thread and I finished the publications linked. There are some problems with the data, the first is that the publications are 20 years old or older. I haven't had the time,yet, to look for more recent analysis. I also haven't had the time to look at other publications by the authors. That said, the mortality between artificial and bait is pretty clear. The mortality between barbed vs barbless is clear only in the catch, and not in any meaningful follow up. For example: did hook damage reduce the survival ability of the fish? Unfortunately that is a study that is difficult to carry out.
I fish barbless. I do it because I want to, because it reduces the handling time of the fish, and it reduces the removal time of the hook I got stuck in the back of my neck. They both came right out with only minimal damage. Here in New Jersey I find it hard to believe that fishing artificials with barbs have a substantially higher mortality than fish caught with barbless.
This is an interesting discussion, and I am glad you brought it up. I will try to spend some time looking for more relevant data on the subject.
I fish barbless. I do it because I want to, because it reduces the handling time of the fish, and it reduces the removal time of the hook I got stuck in the back of my neck. They both came right out with only minimal damage. Here in New Jersey I find it hard to believe that fishing artificials with barbs have a substantially higher mortality than fish caught with barbless.
This is an interesting discussion, and I am glad you brought it up. I will try to spend some time looking for more relevant data on the subject.
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Hey Bubba, I didnt find any newer articles myself but I assume much of it is still relevant. As you said, there is a clear difference between artificial and bait mortality. The one factor that cannot be avoided its the stress of monitoring the fish for mortality post-catch. That definitely ups the mortality due to the extra stress of putting them in a tank for a day or so to monitor them, that being said, it should be equal across barbed and barbless. I would agrgue that the real life numbers are actually a bit lower even though they are very low for barbs and barbless already.Bubba Zinetti wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 4:22 pmHey Twism, and everyone else. New to the thread and I finished the publications linked. There are some problems with the data, the first is that the publications are 20 years old or older. I haven't had the time,yet, to look for more recent analysis. I also haven't had the time to look at other publications by the authors. That said, the mortality between artificial and bait is pretty clear. The mortality between barbed vs barbless is clear only in the catch, and not in any meaningful follow up. For example: did hook damage reduce the survival ability of the fish? Unfortunately that is a study that is difficult to carry out.
I fish barbless. I do it because I want to, because it reduces the handling time of the fish, and it reduces the removal time of the hook I got stuck in the back of my neck. They both came right out with only minimal damage. Here in New Jersey I find it hard to believe that fishing artificials with barbs have a substantially higher mortality than fish caught with barbless.
This is an interesting discussion, and I am glad you brought it up. I will try to spend some time looking for more relevant data on the subject.
As for hook damage and if that that fish survives I think we have all caught fish with hooks still in them, or clear mouth damage but they have no problem going out their fishy lives. I have caught a few trout that came with the "free fly" in their mouth. When bass fishing I routinely catch bass with hooks in them from bait that I will remove. I have even pulled large barbed(!!!!) bait hooks out of their vent (AKA their ass) that they have passed. Swallowed, then passed, a barbed hook and kept feeding that whole time!
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Gotta be uncomfortable...a barb hook coming outta yer ass...yowzee. I have had kidney stones, but this, I cant imagine.. Can I change my screen name to barbless only?Twism86 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 9:28 amHey Bubba, I didnt find any newer articles myself but I assume much of it is still relevant. As you said, there is a clear difference between artificial and bait mortality. The one factor that cannot be avoided its the stress of monitoring the fish for mortality post-catch. That definitely ups the mortality due to the extra stress of putting them in a tank for a day or so to monitor them, that being said, it should be equal across barbed and barbless. I would agrgue that the real life numbers are actually a bit lower even though they are very low for barbs and barbless already.Bubba Zinetti wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 4:22 pmHey Twism, and everyone else. New to the thread and I finished the publications linked. There are some problems with the data, the first is that the publications are 20 years old or older. I haven't had the time,yet, to look for more recent analysis. I also haven't had the time to look at other publications by the authors. That said, the mortality between artificial and bait is pretty clear. The mortality between barbed vs barbless is clear only in the catch, and not in any meaningful follow up. For example: did hook damage reduce the survival ability of the fish? Unfortunately that is a study that is difficult to carry out.
I fish barbless. I do it because I want to, because it reduces the handling time of the fish, and it reduces the removal time of the hook I got stuck in the back of my neck. They both came right out with only minimal damage. Here in New Jersey I find it hard to believe that fishing artificials with barbs have a substantially higher mortality than fish caught with barbless.
This is an interesting discussion, and I am glad you brought it up. I will try to spend some time looking for more relevant data on the subject.
As for hook damage and if that that fish survives I think we have all caught fish with hooks still in them, or clear mouth damage but they have no problem going out their fishy lives. I have caught a few trout that came with the "free fly" in their mouth. When bass fishing I routinely catch bass with hooks in them from bait that I will remove. I have even pulled large barbed(!!!!) bait hooks out of their vent (AKA their ass) that they have passed. Swallowed, then passed, a barbed hook and kept feeding that whole time!
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Uncomfortable for sure, but, survivable. Also you cannot change a screen name once its created..... but I can However, I might not be so kind
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Gee thanks Rusty, I could have used that information a few hours ago.For those looking for scholarly articles about mortality with barbed v barbless, don't waste your time. There is nothing conclusive whatsoever, a fact mentioned by Division biologists when they adopted the barbless rules based on angler preferences.
Not much out there on barbed vs barbless studies, as I have now apparently confirmed. Twism, I have only once caught a fish with someone else's hardware in their jaw. I thought, hey, free hopper. As to the question of is barbed vs barbless a pointless regulation, I would say no. It is the equivalent of asking people to go barbless since the likely hood of a CO asking to see if your barb is pinched is extremely low.
In Germany, we were approached by a member of the club who asked to see our flies and checked if they were indeed barbless. Most water in Germany is privately owned or managed, when you buy a licence you agree to not use barbless and to allow some members to check if you are following the rules. That is the price (along with some Euros) you have to pay to fish their streams.
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
One thing is clear, we all care about fish and their well being. For those on this forum, who mostly C&R and handle fish properly, the barbed vs barbless hooks won’t make a big difference given all the other factors of proper care when handling and releasing a trout. I hope everyone had a good long weekend and we can see each other on the water or across the bar sooner than later!!
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."
Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness
Caught a fish last night that could benefit from barbless regulations. It had 2 flies in its mouth and half a jaw. Sure it was eating but it must have some problems with food slipping out the missing side. Tiny thing...and skinny. Fish deserve better, vote barbless!!