Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Fri May 22, 2020 9:13 am

lightenup wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:51 am
Like anything in this world we can find evidence supporting both sides. Here is an article that has info on barbs doubling mortality rates in fish.
https://theflyfishingbasics.com/barbed- ... ess-hooks/
That article is not scholarly and has no numbers or evident to support its claims.
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

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lightenup
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by lightenup » Fri May 22, 2020 9:35 am

Twism86 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:13 am
lightenup wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:51 am
Like anything in this world we can find evidence supporting both sides. Here is an article that has info on barbs doubling mortality rates in fish.
https://theflyfishingbasics.com/barbed- ... ess-hooks/
That article is not scholarly and has no numbers or evident to support its claims.
There is a link in the article that says in orange, click here for references and the such...scroll down the page and there are several scholarly texts supporting the arguement.

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njcatchrelease
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by njcatchrelease » Fri May 22, 2020 12:29 pm

I've seen way too many fishermen on the river (both fly and spin guys) struggle to get the hook out of the fish they just landed. I feel that the faster the hook can be removed the better, especially with everyone taking longer to release each fish because they need their grip and grin photo.
Tight Lines

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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:37 pm

lightenup wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:35 am
Twism86 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:13 am
lightenup wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:51 am
Like anything in this world we can find evidence supporting both sides. Here is an article that has info on barbs doubling mortality rates in fish.
https://theflyfishingbasics.com/barbed- ... ess-hooks/
That article is not scholarly and has no numbers or evident to support its claims.
There is a link in the article that says in orange, click here for references and the such...scroll down the page and there are several scholarly texts supporting the arguement.
Click through two articles then more links to find article with date, the first link in poorly written if it doesn’t include the direct numbers and references. D on that students paper :lol:

A quick viewing of the links I finally got to still support my arguments. The difference is minimal. Bait is real issue if C&R is the goal. Next!
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Fri May 22, 2020 12:38 pm

njcatchrelease wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:29 pm
I've seen way too many fishermen on the river (both fly and spin guys) struggle to get the hook out of the fish they just landed. I feel that the faster the hook can be removed the better, especially with everyone taking longer to release each fish because they need their grip and grin photo.
Yes, angler skill will always be a greater factor than the hook type used.
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

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Pete
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Pete » Fri May 22, 2020 1:12 pm

Twism86 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:38 pm
Yes, angler skill will always be a greater factor than the hook type used.
Exactly... The unskilled angler is more likely to do a "long distance release" with a barbless hook, minimizing the opportunity for improper handling. :evil:

Troutman
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Troutman » Fri May 22, 2020 1:30 pm

Im fine if a trophy fish spits a barbless hook back @ me. I just want to see him-her 1st. Its the unknown that kills me :lol: :lol: :lol:
Was known as Troutman1

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lightenup
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by lightenup » Fri May 22, 2020 2:13 pm

Twism86 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 12:37 pm
lightenup wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:35 am
Twism86 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:13 am


That article is not scholarly and has no numbers or evident to support its claims.
There is a link in the article that says in orange, click here for references and the such...scroll down the page and there are several scholarly texts supporting the arguement.
Click through two articles then more links to find article with date, the first link in poorly written if it doesn’t include the direct numbers and references. D on that students paper :lol:

A quick viewing of the links I finally got to still support my arguments. The difference is minimal. Bait is real issue if C&R is the goal. Next!
I disagree. The article and the support facts are well written amd conclusive. My friend..I believe firmly to each their own. The facts, no matter how slim, and public opinion, for many reasons mentioned, are against you. I am glad you have this forum so we can discuss these things instead of the other place where we go to call people boobs.. But thats fun also. Enjoy your day

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Drossi
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Drossi » Fri May 22, 2020 3:40 pm

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. You can make numbers say what you want them to say. I have 40 years of experience going back to when I (gasp.....) fished BAIT!

Here goes:
1) I lost plenty of fish during the fight when I used barbed bait hooks and barbed flies.
2) IMHO it takes more force on a hookset to drive in a barbed hook.
3) Barbless hooks are a) easier to get out of a fish b) easier to get out of me/my clothing

I'm a disciple of pinching down the barbs on my flies (then sharpening the hook), it's just so much easier for me to release fish, just pop the hook out while they are in the water or net with out the barb impeding it. Often the fly comes out in the net once tension is released.

I use them, don't care if you do or don't, won't change cause study x, y, or z says it doesn't matter.
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BiggerThomas
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by BiggerThomas » Fri May 22, 2020 3:47 pm

Drossi wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:40 pm
You can make numbers say what you want them to say.


Suggested reading for any half-wit; mandatory reading for anyone with a college degree or higher:

https://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statisti ... B00351DSX2
Every Night & every Morn
Some to Misery are Born
Every Morn and every Night
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to Endless Night
___________________________
--William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence"

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cappy
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by cappy » Sat May 23, 2020 11:01 am

Without getting into details of why, or the merits of barbed or barbless - I prefer and purchase flies tied on barbless hooks. If barbed I pinch them down.

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Rusty Spinner
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Rusty Spinner » Sat May 23, 2020 11:44 am

How quickly we forget. These new regulations went into effect only a couple of short years ago and were by consensus of anglers that responded to the Division's survey about wild trout. The Division adopted them simply because of the fact that the majority wanted barbless and not because of science behind barbed versus barbless and they said as much. I think one in one hundred NJ hunters and anglers could tell you how regulations are made. That means most here don't know that we regulate hunting, fishing and trapping not only based on science, but also based on popular culture at the time. Barbless hooks give more than half of all trout anglers the feeling they are doing something beneficial either for the wild trout or themselves by adopting such regulations. I think it's also one of the regulations not being enforced since I regularly read the CO reports and have yet to see any citations written for fishing with barbed hooks in a barbless area.

That said, I smash down the barbs of all freshwater flies, including streamers. I often forget to smash them down on any store-bought flies. This spring I got a store bought caddis wet fly buried deep in my hand and it was no fun pulling back out.
"A sinking fly is closer to Hell" - Unknown

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BiggerThomas
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by BiggerThomas » Sat May 23, 2020 3:46 pm

Rusty Spinner wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:44 am
[M]ost here don't know that we regulate hunting, fishing and trapping not only based on science, but also based on popular culture at the time.

That's good to hear, but I doubt many would ultimately find that surprising. The word "policy" comes from the Greek "politeia," which roughly means "citizenship' or "people." Unless you're designing policy for robots, you have to consider the citizen culture.
Every Night & every Morn
Some to Misery are Born
Every Morn and every Night
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to sweet delight
Some are Born to Endless Night
___________________________
--William Blake, "Auguries of Innocence"

Bubba Zinetti
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Bubba Zinetti » Mon May 25, 2020 4:22 pm

Hey Twism, and everyone else. New to the thread and I finished the publications linked. There are some problems with the data, the first is that the publications are 20 years old or older. I haven't had the time,yet, to look for more recent analysis. I also haven't had the time to look at other publications by the authors. That said, the mortality between artificial and bait is pretty clear. The mortality between barbed vs barbless is clear only in the catch, and not in any meaningful follow up. For example: did hook damage reduce the survival ability of the fish? Unfortunately that is a study that is difficult to carry out.

I fish barbless. I do it because I want to, because it reduces the handling time of the fish, and it reduces the removal time of the hook I got stuck in the back of my neck. They both came right out with only minimal damage. Here in New Jersey I find it hard to believe that fishing artificials with barbs have a substantially higher mortality than fish caught with barbless.

This is an interesting discussion, and I am glad you brought it up. I will try to spend some time looking for more relevant data on the subject.

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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:28 am

Bubba Zinetti wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:22 pm
Hey Twism, and everyone else. New to the thread and I finished the publications linked. There are some problems with the data, the first is that the publications are 20 years old or older. I haven't had the time,yet, to look for more recent analysis. I also haven't had the time to look at other publications by the authors. That said, the mortality between artificial and bait is pretty clear. The mortality between barbed vs barbless is clear only in the catch, and not in any meaningful follow up. For example: did hook damage reduce the survival ability of the fish? Unfortunately that is a study that is difficult to carry out.

I fish barbless. I do it because I want to, because it reduces the handling time of the fish, and it reduces the removal time of the hook I got stuck in the back of my neck. They both came right out with only minimal damage. Here in New Jersey I find it hard to believe that fishing artificials with barbs have a substantially higher mortality than fish caught with barbless.

This is an interesting discussion, and I am glad you brought it up. I will try to spend some time looking for more relevant data on the subject.
Hey Bubba, I didnt find any newer articles myself but I assume much of it is still relevant. As you said, there is a clear difference between artificial and bait mortality. The one factor that cannot be avoided its the stress of monitoring the fish for mortality post-catch. That definitely ups the mortality due to the extra stress of putting them in a tank for a day or so to monitor them, that being said, it should be equal across barbed and barbless. I would agrgue that the real life numbers are actually a bit lower even though they are very low for barbs and barbless already.

As for hook damage and if that that fish survives I think we have all caught fish with hooks still in them, or clear mouth damage but they have no problem going out their fishy lives. I have caught a few trout that came with the "free fly" in their mouth. When bass fishing I routinely catch bass with hooks in them from bait that I will remove. I have even pulled large barbed(!!!!) bait hooks out of their vent (AKA their ass) that they have passed. Swallowed, then passed, a barbed hook and kept feeding that whole time!
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

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lightenup
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by lightenup » Tue May 26, 2020 10:03 am

Twism86 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:28 am
Bubba Zinetti wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 4:22 pm
Hey Twism, and everyone else. New to the thread and I finished the publications linked. There are some problems with the data, the first is that the publications are 20 years old or older. I haven't had the time,yet, to look for more recent analysis. I also haven't had the time to look at other publications by the authors. That said, the mortality between artificial and bait is pretty clear. The mortality between barbed vs barbless is clear only in the catch, and not in any meaningful follow up. For example: did hook damage reduce the survival ability of the fish? Unfortunately that is a study that is difficult to carry out.

I fish barbless. I do it because I want to, because it reduces the handling time of the fish, and it reduces the removal time of the hook I got stuck in the back of my neck. They both came right out with only minimal damage. Here in New Jersey I find it hard to believe that fishing artificials with barbs have a substantially higher mortality than fish caught with barbless.

This is an interesting discussion, and I am glad you brought it up. I will try to spend some time looking for more relevant data on the subject.
Hey Bubba, I didnt find any newer articles myself but I assume much of it is still relevant. As you said, there is a clear difference between artificial and bait mortality. The one factor that cannot be avoided its the stress of monitoring the fish for mortality post-catch. That definitely ups the mortality due to the extra stress of putting them in a tank for a day or so to monitor them, that being said, it should be equal across barbed and barbless. I would agrgue that the real life numbers are actually a bit lower even though they are very low for barbs and barbless already.

As for hook damage and if that that fish survives I think we have all caught fish with hooks still in them, or clear mouth damage but they have no problem going out their fishy lives. I have caught a few trout that came with the "free fly" in their mouth. When bass fishing I routinely catch bass with hooks in them from bait that I will remove. I have even pulled large barbed(!!!!) bait hooks out of their vent (AKA their ass) that they have passed. Swallowed, then passed, a barbed hook and kept feeding that whole time!
Gotta be uncomfortable...a barb hook coming outta yer ass...yowzee. I have had kidney stones, but this, I cant imagine.. Can I change my screen name to barbless only?😳😉

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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Tue May 26, 2020 10:09 am

lightenup wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 10:03 am
Gotta be uncomfortable...a barb hook coming outta yer ass...yowzee. I have had kidney stones, but this, I cant imagine.. Can I change my screen name to barbless only?😳😉
Uncomfortable for sure, but, survivable. Also you cannot change a screen name once its created..... but I can :lol: However, I might not be so kind :twisted:
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

Bubba Zinetti
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Bubba Zinetti » Tue May 26, 2020 3:10 pm

For those looking for scholarly articles about mortality with barbed v barbless, don't waste your time. There is nothing conclusive whatsoever, a fact mentioned by Division biologists when they adopted the barbless rules based on angler preferences.
Gee thanks Rusty, I could have used that information a few hours ago. :lol:
Not much out there on barbed vs barbless studies, as I have now apparently confirmed. Twism, I have only once caught a fish with someone else's hardware in their jaw. I thought, hey, free hopper. As to the question of is barbed vs barbless a pointless regulation, I would say no. It is the equivalent of asking people to go barbless since the likely hood of a CO asking to see if your barb is pinched is extremely low.

In Germany, we were approached by a member of the club who asked to see our flies and checked if they were indeed barbless. Most water in Germany is privately owned or managed, when you buy a licence you agree to not use barbless and to allow some members to check if you are following the rules. That is the price (along with some Euros) you have to pay to fish their streams.

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Twism86
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by Twism86 » Tue May 26, 2020 8:14 pm

One thing is clear, we all care about fish and their well being. For those on this forum, who mostly C&R and handle fish properly, the barbed vs barbless hooks won’t make a big difference given all the other factors of proper care when handling and releasing a trout. I hope everyone had a good long weekend and we can see each other on the water or across the bar sooner than later!!
"Stupidity is scary but genius can be frightening.
Genius built the atom bomb. Genius topples nations."

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lightenup
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Re: Barbless Regulations and Their Pointlessness

Post by lightenup » Wed May 27, 2020 9:13 am

Caught a fish last night that could benefit from barbless regulations. It had 2 flies in its mouth and half a jaw. Sure it was eating but it must have some problems with food slipping out the missing side. Tiny thing...and skinny. Fish deserve better, vote barbless!!😉😉😉

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